Indiana Democrats flee

[Stump]

Looks as though the Dems in Indiana are doing the same as those from WI.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...nion-protests/

[cornfedkiller]

Absolutely ridiculous..these are the people elected to represent our citizens..

[Grasshopper]

Absolutely ridiculous..these are the people elected to represent our citizens..

And they thought they had trouble in the LAST election!

How do you spin fleeing the state to avoid a vote?

[biker]

The Democrats are much like the French

[Pope n Young]

Absolutely ridiculous..these are the people elected to represent our citizens..

That's exactly what they are doing. They are representing the 10's of thousands of people affected by this. The loss of collective bargining rights and unions is the driving issue in all of this. Good for the Dems who support the citizens and stand up for what they feel is right.

I spoke to Ron Kind on this very issue on Monday. He said Madison has NEVER seen anything like it has for the past 7 days with all the protest. Many people (teachers, nurses, ect.) are being singled out for all of the state deficit, thats just not the case; we're all at fault. If this doesn't affect your family it sounds like a wonderful plan, but it sucks if your a state worker.

[Stump]

They are escaping their responsibilities as elected officials by fleeing. Right now they should be voting on a bill that has been put before them, should they not? After all it is their job. Whether they like it or not, Repulicans hold the majority in your state and apparently enough people(nearly nationwide) has had enough of how Mr. Obama and his Democratic party have run things.

I'm sure that Mr. Kind has never seen anything like it before, but what amount of people there are truly going to be affected by it? Teachers recruiting students to the rally(I read numerous articles on that) and the rumor of people from other states being bused in. Why? To make the opposition seem greater?

[Pope n Young]

I agree that a teacher should not in any way try to "brainwash" their students into their beliefs. That is wrong. But why are educators and nurses to blame for the deficit? I went into education because I enjoy teaching and honestly, I wanted to retire early. I knew I wouldn't become rich from teaching, but my thought was that the benefits made up for the loss in income. Now, we lose the benefits.

Why would anybody in their right mind go into education any longer? Which job with a 4 year degree pays less than a person with an education degree? BTW I need to take college classes every other year (paid out of my pocket) to renew my license. So NOT all summers are off as everyone thinks.

The decline in education is coming.

[10_Points or better]

This is not about just teachers it is about every single state employee as well, not just one small group. For example the State of Minnesota is the largest employeer in Minnesota, so it is a large group of employees. Anyone hear about GM or Ford asking the unions for give backs or paying more for benifits, exactly it' isn't just teachers or state employees it has happened in pretty much every industry in the country over the past 3 years. The biggest issue that is not being brought up is the fact that if the unions lose the collective bargining the union dues are no longer mandatory, see why the unions might be mobilizing? I am sure the union brothers and sisters would still pay their dues if they wern't forced to right?

[Pope n Young]

This is not about just teachers it is about every single state employee as well, not just one small group.

Except police officers and fire fighters (which doesn't make sense to me), but that is another issue for another day! The largest group of state employees is teachers BTW (not a small group).

[Stump]

The teachers/nurses union are not losing the benefits. The proposed plan simply brings them closer to what the private sector pays and takes that burden off ALL of the tax payers of WI in trying to recoup the shortfall. You pay 4-6% into healthcare and 2% into your pension right now? Unless the numbers have changed, those numbers go to 12.?% healthcare and 5.8% for pension. In the private sector, I've seen numbers posted that say people pay in the range of 20%-30% of their salary to healthcare and most companies have all but dropped their 401k match. So that would be 100% of the money put into retirement is on the individual.

But I digress. I do agree with you that the WI taxpayers trying to save money shouldn't be put on the teachers and the nurses solely. I firmly believe that ALL government unions should be abolished and specifically in education it should be run just like a business which it is not.

[Pope n Young]

We'll agree to disagree. Education can not be run like a business. My wife works in advertising. When she has a good month she get a bonus and a good year means a pay raise because she is making money for the business. We (teachers) aren't selling a product and getting a financial return as a business would.
In the business world you don't do your job, you get fired. I agree with that. However, I'd hate for a teacher to get fired because he/she got a class of underachievers. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Stump]

It can be run like a business if a good business plan is set forth. When I say a business, I mean from the district level, one can macro manage it. Each school is a separate business within a business or a department within that business. Then one can micro manage it. Surely within your ranks P&Y, there are unwritten rules that says who is a good teacher and who is a piece of crap. You know who both groups are I'm sure. There can be good guidelines, a good business plan and a good set of standards created for anything out there. I would certainly hope that test scores would factor into the equation, but no right minded person would or should believe that it alone would be the only deciding factor.

PERFECT example and this is fact. When a school district has left over money from that year, what do they do with it and what do they say? "Well, if we don't spend it...we'll lose it and we get less next year. So let's spend it on whatever we can think of and we'll just get more next year". Does that sound like a sound business practice to you?

Think about all the money that is paid to the unions in dues. Think about all the money those unions WASTE on lobbying for X person to be elected(60mil+ in the last election). All of that money if put to good use could actually do something to help someone. Someone being the tax payer of that state and not a select few. What if your union dues went to pay your benefits and pension??

As I stated in another thread....

Teachers(for example) pay into their union which then at the state and national level they lobby for liberal or dem politicians(because they know inherently they will put more money into education and garbage programs). So if that takes place, then that same union will then go to that same person they lobbied for and discuss benefits, pensions, more $ for education, etc... Of which they know they will get because that teachers union just helped, gave $ to the campaign of that politician. So isn't that a HUGE conflict of interest? Of course it is. Talk about corruption. Unions should have never been able embed themselves into government.

Unions are fraudulent and corrupt.

We'll agree to disagree. Education can not be run like a business. My wife works in advertising. When she has a good month she get a bonus and a good year means a pay raise because she is making money for the business. We (teachers) aren't selling a product and getting a financial return as a business would.
In the business world you don't do your job, you get fired. I agree with that. However, I'd hate for a teacher to get fired because he/she got a class of underachievers. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Dor]

My wife is a teacher so I understand, but this is only a VERY small part of what needs to be done nationwide to get the public debt down. It is probably already too late. Once the US dollar fails to be the world wide reserve currency (and its coming based on unsustainable entitlements) you will see REAL pain. Say hello 7 dollar loaf of bread and 7 dollar + gasoline etc....

On a side note as a Pharmacist in the last 3 years....I have recieved no raises, no longer have 401k basically as it has been reduced to max 2% contribution and NO match. Private sector has had to take it in the pants, public sector stands to follow. I don't necessarily agree with everything being done, but like I said its not going to be pretty if we want to get the USA back to greatness. It's probably to late anyway.

[Pope n Young]

Totally off what is being discussed... but where in the hell do we get all this money to help out other countries and why? That's a huge part of our debt. I don't see other countries running to help us out when we have a hurricane or earthquake!

[Pope n Young]

Stump, you may be right; I still don't think it practical. I would hope that we get paid like a business person as well comparable with a 4 year degree! We'll see if that ever happens. You have to be honest, teachers are grossly underpaid?

[RidgeRunner]

Wages and pensions should not be determined by the threat of strikes and walkouts. They should be determined by simple economics. Supply and demand should set the wages and pensions of every profession. The unions ran our automobile industry into the ground and will do the same to every profession where collective bargaining is involved.

I'm not bashing teachers. I think they do a very important job but let's face it, a lot of our teachers are not getting the job done. Education is on the decline in this country but the bad teachers are protected by their union. All they have to do is ride it out, retire in their 50's and cash their checks for life. Not a bad gig. Too bad it's not sustainable and the government in Wisconsin realizes that.

[Dor]

Stump, you may be right; I still don't think it practical. I would hope that we get paid like a business person as well comparable with a 4 year degree! We'll see if that ever happens. You have to be honest, teachers are grossly underpaid?

Some teachers yes. Unfortunately with unions we have to keep all the ****ty ones on board and have no way of rewarding outstanding teachers. It brings about mediocrity...why try to excel at your job when you know you'll be paid the same anyway? Its the nature of a union. Grossly underpaid? Probably not. 9-9.5 months of work for say 40K is the equavalent to 55K. Not a horrible salary for a 730 to 430 job. Add in 3 months of summer work to it for say 10$/hr seasonal help wage which is roughly 5k. your at 60K. Pretty damn good if you ask me considering you have a funded pension and better than average healthcare.

My wife does considerably better than the above scenario.

Not starting a fight, just finding it hard to be outraged over this.

The bargaining issue is another topic that could have bad effects down the road. Re-elect Dems and you will probably get it all back anyway, after all thats the only way they win elections bought and paid for by unions.

[Grasshopper]

I have been a teacher and I see P&Y's side clearly. My wife is in education, just like DOR's.

Now I am self-employed and see the conservative side of things all too clearly sometimes!

The union membership and citizens have every right to protest and make their opinions heard. That is one of the wonderful qualities of our country.

Politicians who do not like the leadership or face passage of a bill they disagree with DO NOT have the right to flee the state. One of my best friends is a far-left liberal and even he agrees with this.

If Dems take it in the shorts this session, they regroup in the next election and change the laws. That is how democracy works....

[Stump]

Stump, you may be right; I still don't think it practical. I would hope that we get paid like a business person as well comparable with a 4 year degree! We'll see if that ever happens. You have to be honest, teachers are grossly underpaid?

Some teachers yes. Unfortunately with unions we have to keep all the ****ty ones on board and have no way of rewarding outstanding teachers. It brings about mediocrity...why try to excel at your job when you know you'll be paid the same anyway? Its the nature of a union. Grossly underpaid? Probably not. 9-9.5 months of work for say 40K is the equivalent to 55K. Not a horrible salary for a 730 to 430 job. Add in 3 months of summer work to it for say 10$/hr seasonal help wage which is roughly 5k. your at 60K. Pretty damn good if you ask me considering you have a funded pension and better than average healthcare.

Dor pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. Even if he is high by 10k a year and you make 50, with the benefits and pension money you receive......I'd call that living comfortably at worst. Should teachers be paid comparably to someone else with a random 4 yr degree? No, that's silly. Teachers should be paid comparable to others in a given region AND based on performances not based on how long you've sat in front of a class. Additionally, not what a contract says that a person has a good chance and a high probability of hiding behind.

The downfall of our society and especially when talking about unions is that every single person out there thinks they need to/should be making $35 an hr. No matter if your pushing a broom or working a highly skilled job. Businesses out there simply can't afford it and no longer can our states afford to be funding the retirements and doctor office visits for every government union employee to the degree they have been. That's reality.